Vermont. "Grand Trunk Western Keeps its Word." Occasionally the 6400s were seen on freight trains, especially on break-in runs after overhauling at the Battle Creek shops. Simmons-Boardman Publishing Co., 1927. Illinois and was in its later years the only railroad that provided Remarks: Engine has duplex mechanical stoker, They developed 52,457 pounds of tractive effort and weighed 382,700 pounds. 7526 peers bashfully between two of the class U-3-b Northerns, Nos. Some well known trips done by No. However, when I came across No. In the view below we see No. Despite a network of less than 300 miles its hotly contested Detroit - Chicago market was a vital artery for CN in reaching America's railroad capital. It has bad cylinder castings. Richard Leonard's Steam Locomotive Archive - Grand Trunk Western Roster By the first half of the 20th century the railroads largest steam power would be its Northern type 4-8-4 locomotives, called Confederations by CN. The K-4 Pacifics were a variation of the USRA light Pacific design; they had 67 square feet of grate area, an evaporative heating surface of 3340 square feet, and 795 square feet of superheating surface. No. 6323 at speed on the main line with a passenger train, perhaps even the Maple Leaf. ], Scribbins, Jim. Francisco Railway. reinstalled. Western Railroad, 1938-1961. [3], Since its sidelining in 2005, No. The line still featured a daily local freight and a mixed train, which we rode. 922 then years later renumbered #1396. More information: Initially, it was to be shipped to Wakefield, Massachusetts, for Operator Bellevue and Switchtender Nichols yard will handle Crossover Switches. 6039 at Elsdon terminal in March 1939 with boxpok wheels only on the second driving axle, while on September 21, 1941, it was reportedly caught having the boxpok wheels on the first, second, and third axles, but not on the fourth axle. February 25: Hocking Valley Steam Train Special. But on this summer day in 1951 it was Pacific 5030, on a break-in run after repairs at the Battle Creek shops, which did the honors. can be restored to run, it should be so restored for interpretive use In its later years of service on the GTW, the locomotive pulled numerous excursion trips hosted by local railroad clubs and the GTW. The People's Railway. The following year, it was moved again to North Walpole, New Hampshire, due to the increase in size of the collection of locomotives and rolling stock. [7][1] There, it was repainted again with the smokebox becoming black again. Edmunds: Pacific Fast Mail, 1977: 4-9, Steam locomotives resisted the onset of dieseldom a bit longer in Canada than on most railroads south of the border, and this was also true for Canadian National Railways' operating unit in the Great Lakes states, the Grand Trunk Western. No. Thus commuters riding to their jobs in 4070 was then acquired by the Midwest Railway Preservation Society for use on its Cuyahoga Valley Line. the Grand Trunk Western to feature both Vanderbilt tenders and enclosed, ]. Durango & Silverton More information: Sugar Express. Larry Bell (mentioned above) wrote me as follows: "In Durand, the 3500s were used on the 'top end jobs' almost exclusively. acquired a rather ugly shielding around the stack which, fortunately, S-19802, Montreal, Quebec, June 17, 1959.". 6313, above, as she pauses with the mid-afternoon Inter-City Limited in the summer of 1953. photograph), but not on the fourth. Bellows Falls, Vt.: Recommendation: This engine is exactly the Alco 2-6-0 steam locomotive #11 powers a 27-mile round-trip excursion from Picture Information. They had 51-inch diameter driving wheels, weighed 215,150 pounds, and exerted 49,691 pounds of tractive effort. Although engine crews reportedly liked these 4-8-2s, This film is part of the Periscope Film LLC archive, one of the largest historic military, transportation, and aviation stock footage collections in the USA.. [See p. 198, fig. In 1967 and 1968, it traveled to Baraboo, WI to pull the Circus World Museum's Schlitz Circus Train. GTWs predecessor lines primarily used 4-4-0 American-type locomotives before the turn of the 19th to 20th century. This locomotive also has a "cowcatcher" pilot, whereas most members of the U-3-b class had the cast steel pilot as shown on No. Class includes both GT and GTW locomotives. The Grand Trunk Western made two other notable 6039 was sold for $7,425 on June 17, 1959, to seafood magnate and steam locomotive enthusiast F. Nelson Blount. During that same summer my father was transitioning between serving as Methodist minister in Bellevue, Michigan and teaching at the Detroit Institute of Technology. Class J-3-a had 69-inch drivers, a boiler pressure of 185 pounds per square inch, and cylinder dimensions of 23x28 inches. The locomotive is in storage, on static display at the Age of Steam Roundhouse in Sugarcreek, Ohio. 1006, and renumbered twice, before it was photographed leading a mixed train through Ontario in . Installation of 50 sq ft of thermic siphons also increased the firebox heating surface to 231 sq ft. Out of service since 1990, she is undergoing restoration in Cleveland. My train-watching that day netted me a bonus: a ride in the cab at the invitation of an engineman, and the photo at left, which is the oldest photo taken by me in this Archive. served on passenger runs between Detroit and Muskegon. In 1948, locomotive No. Meanwhile, one of CN's American subsidiaries, the Grand Trunk Western Railroad (GTW), was struggling with the increase of passenger traffic, especially in the Chicago division, since their trains were growing longer to the point they exceeded their 4-6-2 "Pacific" types' hauling capacities. This subclass had Stephenson valve gear until retired. I photographed No. Until the mid-1950s the GTW's passenger service was still entirely steam-operated, with the exception of the Detroit-Port Huron motor train. 2124. Narrow Gauge Railroad Probably the lowliest assignment given to these engines was work train service, almost always a task relegated to obsolete or surplus power even today. Lake Superior & Ishpeming: 2-8-0 "consolidation" The first Grand Trunk Western trip proved to be a big success and over the next few years, No. They weighed about 211,200 pounds and were rated at 40,000 pounds of tractive effort. Most of the locomotives listed here were still in service in the early 1950s. 6400-6404 of parent Canadian National. Vol. They were called the Queen Mary, etc., because of their good riding qualities. Grand Trunk Western No. 5629 | Locomotive Wiki | Fandom The Grand Trunk Western owned six of them; another user of the 0-8-2 was the Illinois Central. 25. [5][6] The city finalized plans for the locomotive's display location on Hall street across from the train station in May 1960. Grand Trunk Western No. More information: Hocking Valley Scenic Railway. Refresh your browser window to try again. Second, the parent Canadian National Railways had purchased 16 of Five people lost their lives in the accident. Grand Trunk Western Model Train Locomotives - Hobbylinc This was long before the days of computerized and radio-controlled train dispatching from half a continent away, and the ancient telegraph still ticked busily in the operator's office. The K-4-b class, weighing 299,350 pounds, had a boiler pressure of 215 pounds per square inch and delivered 43,800 pounds of tractive effort. resulted in the railroad downgrading use of the "Mountains," and they In the late 1970s, Jensen moved No. ], Locomotive Cyclopedia of American Practice, 8th ed. This view highlights the slightly raised headlight of some members of the U-3-b class. To span the gap between these assignments he filled in as minister of the Methodist Church in Middleton, Michigan, on the Grand Trunk Western's Greenville branch. The famous K-4-a No. These engines spent their final operating days in suburban service between Detroit and Durand. 6039 remains on static display at Scranton with very meticulous cosmetic care. mechanical condition should be thoroughly assessed and a decision made the United States as a result of the great success of an engine of that (It was used in Quastler's Where the Rails Cross, mentioned above.) ], National Railway Historical Society Bulletin, Vol. D&RGW 168 leads a special with photo runbys from Antonito, 8380, it turns out, was also one of this legendary group and operated until December 1980. I spent many an hour watching Consolidations, and sometimes Pacifics, switch the handful of industries that lined the track near the depot, a few blocks south of our home in Bellevue, Michigan. Durango & Silverton 6315. The Point St.Charles shop was opened in 1859 by the Grand Trunk and built a healthy portion of the Grand Trunk's roster. Above, sister No. No. She was sent to the scrapyard in 1959. Retired in 1959, No. Grand Trunk Western Locomotive No. For tourist railroads offering regularly 6039 and the other U-1-cs a number of modifications; during the mid-1930s the U-1-cs were all equipped with roller bearings on leading and trailing trucks on the locomotive itself rather than the friction bearings they were initially built with. Those remaining in 1956 renumbered as follows: 8222 = 8447; 8226 = 8448. In 1940 and After the new shiny black sheet of boiler jacketing was replaced, Steamtown's boilermaker, Mark St Aubin, took two and a half days to reassemble the piping. Type Class Road Numbers Cylinders Driver Diameter : Boiler Pressure Locomotive Weight Tractive Effort Builder and Year: Remarks 0-6-0 O-18-b: 7474-7498 22x26 51 175 174,000 37,000 Lima, 1920 Shown on 1937 roster. [18] After moving it in October 1986 from its display location to a track at Franklin Iron & Metal Co.,[19] work soon began to restore the locomotive to operable status. With a locomotive weight of 403,000 pounds and a combined engine-and-tender length of 96 feet, the U-3-b class was still one of the smaller types of 4-8-4s used on the North American railway system. 6039 was often seen on fast freight trains beginning in the early 1930s. Coal (in tons): 18 5629 at Dearborn Station in Chicago. 4083 in the 1956 renumbering. The locomotive was mainly designed to haul freight trains, but also did occasional passenger service whenever possible. 11, 1953.Photo by Peter Cox, Steamtown Foundation Collection. trains, plus night photo session - Rockhill Furnace, Pennsylvania that its restoration for operation may not be fiscally within reason, As a member of the dual service U-3-b class, the 6325 handled heavy passenger and freight work for the Grand Trunk Western. Class: U-1-c, Builder: Baldwin Locomotive Works Above, No. Others, such as the surviving No. Related photos: 6039 became one of the very first steam locomotives to be owned by F. Nelson Blount, and it subsequently became part of his Steamtown, U.S.A. collection for static display. Several groups, including the Illinois Railway Museum and the Mid-Continent Railway Museum, stepped in to try and save it, but soon realized it would be too costly since it could no longer move on its own wheels. In her tow is one of the K-4-b Pacifics (identifiable by the vestibule cab) evidently destined for shopping at Battle Creek. Steam and First Generation Diesel Motive Power on the Grand Trunk Trunk Western, especially on its Chicago Division, had increased to the CNR steam locomotives that serviced this country of ours. Steamtown Foundation, n.d. (ca. 6329 leads a westbound freight over the crossover during this period of track work. Power consisted of the 5000 series Pacifics and 2600-series Consolidations. 86 was built in 1910 by the Canadian Locomotive Co. as Grand Trunk No. 6039 is a preserved class "U-1-c" 4-8-2 "Mountain type" steam locomotive built in June 1925 by Baldwin. All or some of the N-4-d and N-4-d class were built as cross-compounds and converted to simple operation around 1926. I. E. Quastler included this photo in his Grand Trunk Western Railroad: An Illustrated History. [7][8] As site preparation began, some residents protested suggesting that the site was too small; ultimately, the chosen site was used. The dimensions of class P-5-b, built by ALCo in 1924, were similar to those of the later subclasses except that their lower 200-pound boiler pressure gave them only 45,000 pounds of tractive effort. Grand Trunk Western No. Gary Thompson provided a photo by William Rosenberg of No. In the summer of 1953, as mentioned above, a crane was working on the westbound track near Bellevue, and trains were being diverted to the eastbound main between Bellevue and Nichols Yard in Battle Creek. Drawing of This engine may be seen at the head of a fast freight in Chicago's south side on John Szwajkart's video The Chicago Collection. Trunk Western Railway leased No. This page provides a calendar of upcoming railfan events and excursions throughout North America. 6327 was among the last of GTW's steam engines still operating when the railroad dieselized in 1960 and it was scrapped that year. This translation tool is for your convenience only. The engineer, leaning on the window sill, regards the photographer (me) on the M-78 highway bridge with some amusement. As a result I never saw them in operation, though I photographed No. Grand Trunk Western 4070 was an icon steam locomotive in passenger excursion service between 1968 and 1990. They had a grate area of 84 square feet, 4400 square feet of evaporative heating surface, and 1955 square feet of superheating surface. Grand Trunk Western Railroad - Locomotives - Steam - LiquiSearch 50196 was a self-propelled Burro crane used in track work.) Grand Trunk Western Steam locomotives resisted the onset of dieseldom a bit longer in Canada than on most railroads south of the border, and this was also true for Canadian National Railways' operating unit in the Great Lakes states, the Grand Trunk Western. HO Athearn Genesis Grand Trunk Western USRA 2-8-2 Steam Locomotive GTW #3709. 5048 with the local freight at the depot in nearby Perrinton. Newton: Carstens Publications, 1982: 85. Peering over her shoulder is K-4-a Pacific No. automatic or mechanical stokers, and they were the first locomotives on 56, her Muskegon-Detroit train. More information: 58463, Cylinders: 26 x 30, Drive Wheels: 73, Weight on Drivers: 231,370, Boiler Pressure: 210, Tractive Effort: 49,590. They ended their days in Detroit suburban passenger service, and can be seen in this role on the Herron video/DVD Glory Machines of the Grand Trunk Western. Sent to CNR or GT after delivery of U-3-b class. Michigan and controlled by the Grand Trunk Railroad of Canada, by 1920 No. do not Exceed Fifteen 15 Miles per hour entering and leaving single track V.R.H." tender and engine axles, but during the mid-1930s the Grand Trunk Seller information. designs around the stacks of these engines, following the popularity of headed to abide by the timetables, a costly practice that required an By 1857, the Grand Trunk had a total of 849 miles of track in operation and rostered a fleet of 197 locomotives. Class U-1-c was delivered by Baldwin Locomotive Works in 1925. Narrow Gauge Railroad, Durango & Silverton Oil (in gallons): Not applicable kind of modem, heavy-duty, main line motive power that should become the Click to enlarge. Its role in history is what saved it from the scrapper's torch. 6325 ("Old 6325"[1][2]) is a class "U-3-b" 4-8-4 "Northern" type steam locomotive built in 1942 by the American Locomotive Company (ALCO) for the Grand Trunk Western Railroad. the railroad later removed. It seems that the company had acquired a number of locomotives for scrapping, and even replaced older switchers with more recent acquisitions. Grand Trunk Western No. After World War II, the GTW started investing into diesel locomotives, which would take over most of the high-priority assignments. No. However, this was later removed for proving to be ineffective. Grand Trunk Western No. Railroad photography exposition and railroadiana show - Corvallis, Oregon 8380, above. No. be restored cosmetically to serve as a static exhibit engine in the 6328 met the torch in Chicago in 1960. Instead of cutting them up, the scrappers converted a number of these GTW 0-8-0s to oil burners, added auxiliary water tenders and kept them around to switch the plant until 1980. Selten - Champ, Grand Trunk Western, Gtw, Dampflok, O Scale Aufkleber Word of No. In 1960, it was sold to Richard Jensen of Chicago, IL for approximately $9,540.40, the scrap value of the locomotive at the time. With 3,600 passengers holding tickets train #21 had to be run in two sections (as two separate trains) to accommodate the excess of passengers. More information: Walkersville Southern Railroad, May 27: Cumbres & Toltec Locomotive 315 Memorial Weekend Special 6039 at Steamtown, Bellows Falls, Following a day of testing and adjustments to her appliances, the next day, July 31, with Mr. Jacobson at the throttle she moved under her own power for the first time in over 40 years. 5634. In 1973, Richard Jensen was severely injured following a freak accident. 1980: 342-344. (The third locomotive in the photo, only partially visible, is No. My brother, David Leonard, photographed No. Below we see two more examples of the Grand Trunk Western's fleet of eight-wheeled switchers. Oddly, these modern drive wheels were not all Below is a broadside shot of 0-8-0 switcher No. Builder: American Locomotive Company, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Jeddo Coal 0-4-0 steam locomotive #85 pulls three excursions each day - Walkersville, Technically called "box-spoke," these drivers had fewer spokes Text and photo images2009 Richard Leonard. As a member of the dual service U-3-b class, the 6325 handled heavy passenger and freight work for the Grand Trunk Western. roundhouse. Burr Oak Yard was sold to Metra Commuter Rail of Chicago, who asked Jensen to relocate No. This left-side view highlights her Worthington type BL feedwater heater, mounted behind the air pump. of course, subsequently was absorbed into the government-owned Canadian All Rights Reserved. It was operated on this schedule for all three days of the event. This is one of Thirty-nine of these relatively small but . 6329 during the summer of 1953, including the one below in which the 4-8-4 pauses just east of Bellevue with an eastbound movement. More information: 7526, because of its short wheelbase, was probably used to switch some industrial trackage in Battle Creek that had sharp curves. No. The engine was donated to the City of Jackson, Michgan,in 1957 and is on display in North Lawn Park just off Lansing Ave. Everett Railroad they could be found, in the words of the railroad's historian, "as often The boxpok drivers proved an important modification There, Jensen and a group of local railfans worked to restore No. More information: the engine, which at the time was stored in St. Albans, Vermont. The Grand Trunk Western No. I. Grand Trunk Western No. No. U.S. Sugar 4-6-2 #148 leads excursions from Sebring and Lake Placid, Six GTW U-4-b class 4-8-4s built by Lima Locomotive Works would have streamlined shrouding and 77-inch (1.956 m) driving wheels to be used only in passenger service. To see a list of Grand Trunk Western locomotives as of 1938-1942, most of which were still active in the early 1950s, visit our GTW Roster. Santa Fe No. September 21, 1941, it had the boxpok drivers on at least the second and 3523 was a member of class S-1-h, built in 1918 by Schenectady. 6039 was moved to Riverside, to become an exhibit of Blount's new Steamtown, U.S.A. collection. Colebrookdale Railroad Preservation Trust, Station & Parking Lot: 64 S. Washington Street Business Office: 100 S. Chestnut Street. in high-speed service. 6039, the only tender of this 8380 in the yards at Durand, Michigan during the summer of 1953. It was comprised of the Grand Trunk Railway (GTR), Intercolonial Railway (ICR) and the Canadian Northern (CNoR). Related photos: Diesel - HO is the most popular of the 3 grand trunk western model train locomotives categories, then Diesel - N, and Steam - N. Atlas is ranked #1 out of 4 grand trunk western model train locomotives manufacturers, followed by Walthers Mainline, and Broadway . With cylinder dimensions of 22x28 inches, they sustained a boiler pressure of 220 pounds per square inch. 6039 is the sole survivor of the GTW's 4-8-2 locomotives, and it is one of only seventeen steam locomotives from the GTW that are preserved. Today, the story of GTW No. [1] It served the Grand Trunk Western Railroad by pulling fast passenger and freight trains throughout the Lower Peninsula of Michigan, until the railroad decided to dieselize their locomotive fleet. Railroad No. March 1939 with boxpok drivers only on the second driver axle, while on Entdecke SELTEN - CHAMP, GRAND TRUNK WESTERN, GTW, DAMPFLOK, O SCALE AUFKLEBER, E-5 in groer Auswahl Vergleichen Angebote und Preise Online kaufen bei eBay Kostenlose Lieferung fr viele Artikel! Narrow Gauge Railroad Photos, October 6-9: Nevada Northern Railway "Photo Spectacular" 6039 on display at Steamtown in 1962, when it was headquartered in New Hampshire. 19th annual street festival and railfan extravaganza - Ashland, Builders Number: 38441, Cylinders: 23x28 100. As with many 5633, displays the web-spoke drivers that seem to have been applied only to this member of the trio. [1], During the 1920s, the 4-8-2 "Mountain" type became increasingly famous with various class 1 railroads in North America for proving their worth in pulling fast passenger trains and heavy freight trains. Seattle: Superior Publishing Co., 1977. Read more about this topic: Grand Trunk Western Railroad, Locomotives, If Steam has done nothing else, it has at least added a whole new Species to English Literature the bookletsthe little thrilling romances, where the Murder comes at page fifteen, and the Wedding at page fortysurely they are due to Steam?And when we travel by electricityif I may venture to develop your theorywe shall have leaflets instead of booklets, and the Murder and the Wedding will come on the same page.Lewis Carroll [Charles Lutwidge Dodgson] (18321898), Wisely watch for the sightOf the supernova burgeoning over the barn,Lampshine blurred in the steam of beasts, the spirits rightOasis, light incarnate.Richard Wilbur (b. Blount wanted the locomotive to be shipped to Wakefield, Massachusetts to be exhibited at the Pleasure Island amusement park, but it ended up being put in storage in St. Albans, instead. They were nice riding compared to the 0-8-0's because of the trailer wheel. No. But it wasn't until 1998 that restoration efforts began and on July 31, 2001, No. 6325's time under steam only lasted just over three years after its full restoration was completed in 2001, the museum has said that not as much work would be required to bring the locomotive back to operational condition. The steam locomotives made by the DB in West Germany, under the guidance of Friedrich Witte, represented the latest evolution in steam locomotive construction including fully welded frames, high-performance boilers and roller bearings on all moving parts. [6][1] The locomotive was also repainted with a light grey smokebox and a solid black number plate, and it was put on display at North Walpole in front of Maine Central 2-8-0 No. The run drew thousands of rail enthusiasts. Later fully or partially equipped with disc drivers. The year 2004 saw a huge event in Ohio Central's steam operations when "Trainfestival 2004" took place from July 30 to August 1, 2004, in Dennison, Ohio. Actually, these engines had been converted from 2-8-2s by amputating the pilot truck. At right is a postcard published early in the diesel era, still showing one of the 6400s stopped at Durand with a Montreal-Chicago train. Locomotives: The Mountains. [13][14][note 1]. scheduled excursions, please see the Tourist Railroads & Museums Pages. Copyright 1995-2023 eBay Inc. All Rights Reserved. More information: The new tender allowed for more coal and water to be transported which meant the train did not have to stop as often to replenish its supply. NPS should commission a No. Submit Your Event. No. The locomotive was retired by 1961, and was subsequently sold for scrap.[23][24]. Date Built: 1912 It also appeares on the back cover of the Spring 2022 issue of The Semaphore, magazine of the Grand Trunk Western Historical Society. 6323 and 6313 above and 6328 below. No. [Photograph of No. 6038 and specifications. 6323 at Durand, Michigan, in May, 1954, while it was temporarily separated from the Maple Leaf so diesel switcher 7904 (visible behind 6323's tender) could switch a car for the Detroit connection. Baldwin Locomotive Works. 6405-6410. Subsequently the engine was exhibited at Blount's Steamtown located at For surviving steam locomotives, visit the Grand Trunk Western page in Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotive site. The accuracy and accessibility of the resulting translation is not guaranteed. Grand Trunk Western No. As time progressed, the GTW had given No. More information: 6325 was the star of the show; first it was parked for display then it was coupled to the passenger train for several one-hour train rides throughout the day. Whyte System Type: 4-8-2 Mountain Builder's no. Builders Number: 46941, Cylinders: 20x28 Purchased in 1993 by Jerry Jacobson of the Ohio Central Railroad, the locomotive sat in storage for six years until being restored to operating condition on July 31, 2001, for use on excursion trains across the Ohio Central System. Text and photo images2013 Richard Leonard. Date Built: June 1925 The 4-6-2 or Pacific type was considered a passenger engine by most North American railroads, but several lines used older classes of Pacifics in light freight service. With little volunteers, low money and no place to call home, the Greater Battle Creek foundation was through. The locomotive was first restored by the Grand Canyon Railroad in the 1980's and hasbeen in operation since. 5629 View source A postcard from the late 1960s showing No. However in 2005, the engine was sidelined after it suffered a hot driving axle bearing issue during an excursion run, it was taken out of service indefinitely were it was previously awaiting for a complete rebuild. When the Grand Trunk was absorbed in the CNR system, a handful of new locomotives were also constructed. Although the 4-8-4 was a popular dual-service locomotive, only a few railroads applied streamlining or semi-streamlining to this wheel arrangement. In 1960, No. As a result, local freight and branch line duties were still performed by the GTW's ageing stable of lighter steam power. 6325 to steam is not a priority for the museum at this time.[22]. . Third, during the Roaring Twenties passenger traffic on the Grand Included in the festivities were a pageant, a banquet, a grand ball, and fireworks. 6405 heading the Inter-City Limited at the Durand depot. commuter rail service in and around Detroit. 6039 at Elsdon engine terminal in Around this time, the Rock Island was on the verge of bankruptcy, and in March 1980, the railroad shut down for good. [9][10] The locomotive was moved to its preservation site on July 9, 1960,[11][12] and a dedication ceremony was held on July 17. For more GTW and CNR steam images taken by my late brother, visit David Leonard's CNR-GTW Steam Gallery, 1958. Those remaining in 1956 renumbered as follows: 3748 = 4083; 3750-3757 = 4084-4091. After the scrapping, it was discovered that some of the vandalism done to the locomotive was done by Metra employees. California This portrait of 2-8-0 No. Railway to acquire heavy passenger (and freight) locomotives of the however, before undertaking such restoration, the locomotive's 1921), Blotting the sunStinging the eyes.The hot seeds steam undergroundstill alive.Gary Snyder (b.
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